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Aloe-Hybriden und -Kultivare

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Beitrag  M.Ramone am So 10 März 2019, 13:15

Moin,

was haltet ihr von dieser 'Coral Fire'?

Ich sammel noch Pflanzen bei diesem Verkäufer, um das Porto pro Pflanze zu drücken. Bei der 'Coral Fire' bin ich mir aber überhaupt nicht sicher, ob es sich um die 'Coral Fire' handelt. Der Exotengarten Odenwald zeigt sie so und der Huntingtonblog so und so.

Der gezeigten Pflanze vom Huntingtonblog kommt sie schon sehr nah, viele Charakteristiken stimmen. Der Pflanze, wie sie der Exotengarten Odenwald zeigt, hingegen überhaupt nicht.

Ich tendiere dazu sie zu kaufen, ich würde aber gerne noch eure Meinung dazu hören.


Karin, deine 'Red Dragon' sieht ja herrlich aus. Vielleicht kannst du mir ja mal einen Ableger zurück halten, falls sie mal einen rausschieben sollte. Würde mich sehr freuen.
M.Ramone
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Beitrag  Karin am So 10 März 2019, 15:31

Hi Marcus,

da bist du ja wieder hinter einem schönen Stück her. Auf der Suche nach weiteren Bildern bin ich auf diesen link mit tollen Bildern gestoßen:

https://www.exoticaesoterica.com/cactus-and-succulents/2018/9/26/a-field-guide-to-the-fantasy-aloes

Wenn meine Red Dragon mal kindelt, kannst du natürlich was abhaben :-)

lg,Karin
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Beitrag  M.Ramone am So 10 März 2019, 16:02

Uuuups, ich habe mich vertippt. Ich habe Huntingtonblog geschrieben und meinte Exotica Esoterica. Smile Trotzdem vielen Dank dafür, dass du dich auf die Suche begeben hast, Karin. Smile
Ist dir nicht aufgefallen, dass es die gleichen Bilder sind?

lol!

Guddi, dann merk' ich mir mal, dass ich mich nicht mehr nach der 'Red Dragon' umsehen muss. Dankeschön!
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Beitrag  Karin am So 10 März 2019, 16:54

Hihi,

ich war so geflasht von den tollen Bildern, dass mir das wirklich nicht aufgefallen ist...Meine Wunschliste ist mit einem Schlag viel länger geworden.

lg,Karin
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Beitrag  spinesandrosettes am So 10 März 2019, 19:18

Hallo Ada,

Dies ist ein wunderbares Beispiel für eine ältere und gut gewachsene Gruppe von A. descoingsii. Danke fürs Zeigen. Ich freue mich auch, dass Ihre neuen Ergänzungen so gut abschneiden.   Wink  sunny

__________________________

Hallo Karin,

Was für ein tolles Foto, das zeigt, wie klein descoingsii im Vergleich zu einer anderen größeren, aber typischen Aloe ist.

_______________________________________________________

Hi Marcus,
I appreciate the discussion between us of genetics, which is fun for me. Keep in mind my comments below are in the spirit of friendly exchange of ideas... just fun, and nothing of argument.   Very Happy
Unfortunately, there is no guide for aloes where we can look up what characteristics are dominant and recessive.  Whether for propriety information reasons, or whether it's not a major concern (result oriented only), breeders who would most likely have insight into this knowledge have not shared this information that I can find. So, as it is, it is up to an individual to try and discover these things on their own via their own work. I have only been doing my own breeding for a few years, not decades like some of the old time breeders (such as Dick Wright), but I have done a lot of crosses already, and am gaining some insights of my own.

For one, I have found that if one breeds a hybrid to a pure species, so far, it seems evident to me that the features of the pure species dominate. This makes sense to me, because a species is created over many thousands of years, and so, over that great passage of time, the genes of a pure species are focused within the population of that species, until eventually they all look essentially alike, with perhaps some minor degree of variation. So, you end up with a set of genes that dominate within the population that is the individual species. Aloe polyphylla is considered the youngest of aloe species according to expert Alan Beverly, who wrote his thesis on the species. He estimates Aloe polyphylla to be only 10,000 years young. Wink  Flower structure is also a great tool for determining whether an individual plant belongs to a species, or that might be related to another species. Even where there is variation within a species, the flowers are usually virtually identical. An example I can give you is my three clones of castilloniae that I consider to be very different. Castilloniae flowering is very unique and different from other aloes I have seen blooming, and I have had the pleasure of seeing all three bloom now. The inflorescence, the number of flowers, form, color...everything about them are virtually identical on my three very different looking clones. I believe this makes a great argument that my clones are pure species, but different variants. I feel quite certain that if there was hybridizing influence, I would be seeing the evidence of such by noting at least something different about the flowers.

Also, I have two variants of humilis. One is a "normal" looking one...and much different from the heavily tubercle filled "super clone" that I got from Germany which I already showed.
Here is the more plain and common version:
[Sie müssen registriert oder eingeloggt sein, um das Bild sehen zu können.]

The flowers here, which form in a way unique to a number of species, starts with a disproportionately thick and stout inflorescence, with a lightbulb-like shape to a developing group of flowers on the top, until the flowers on the bottom start opening, and the further development of the inflorescence creates more distance between the flowers. Yet, the flowers clearly even when the inflorescence itself has finished development, are still grouped rather close to the top of the inflorescence. Here is the early stage of flowering on my German clone illustrating this feature.
[Sie müssen registriert oder eingeloggt sein, um das Bild sehen zu können.]
[Sie müssen registriert oder eingeloggt sein, um das Bild sehen zu können.]
What I have found is that although my two clones of humilis are rather different, at least regarding the density of tubercles, the flowers are the same, and develop the same. This would suggest that they are indeed of the same species, without hybridization, but extreme variants. I expect that through breeding, or perhaps a lucky mutation, the version that has great density of tubercles was discovered and propagated.

Thanks for the link for the photo of humilis X praetensis - I have seen it before too. That comes from my friend Leo in Spain of Succulentia. I have a few favorite aloe and agave from him - he is a master collector of amazing plants. Here is that same shot and another view from the top http://www.agaveville.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4088    It is still my opinion that those tubercles are very different than the type on my Dick Wright hybrids. Let us consider in particular my DW hybrid from Thailand shown earlier. Great tubercle formations, top and underneath leaves. Rather than distinct and individual spikes, they are more like ridges. Let me now add to the basis for my conclusion why I do not believe DW used humilis in his hybrid mixture. Here is another earlier photo of my plant, but in bloom.
[Sie müssen registriert oder eingeloggt sein, um das Bild sehen zu können.]
Now look at Ada's fine photo of her A. descoingsii bloom. What I see here is a strong resemblance to the unusual long, arching inflorescence of descoingsii. At no point in the development of the Thailand DW hybrid have I ever seen any similarity to a humilis inflorescence, not to mention the flowers themselves. Humilis produces extra long tubular flowers, and produces long seed pods. The hybrid is more consistent with descoingsii flowers and seed pods. Other DW hybrids are more variable, but only in that the inflorescence is not quite as long and arching, but more upright. All form small and more round, but slightly oblong seed pods. At the least, we see the long, thin, arching inflorescence similar to descoingsii, and nothing of the thick, stout inflorescence of humilis, not to mention the unique flower formation development of humilis.

A. humilis seed pods
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Here are the seed pods grown on A. descoingsii that produced my A. descoingsii X A. 'Salt' cross.  (Ada, your plant is one of the seeds inside one of these seed pods!  Very Happy )
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typical DW hybrid seed pods - these pods are from 4 different DW hybrids which were all blooming together, and crossed to each other and with a few different favorites which were also blooming at the time
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Again, I just see no evidence, either in the similarity of tubercle formation, or the flowers to indicate the presence of humilis genes in the DW hybrids.

Here is one of my A. descoingsii. It's an older plant, but remains typically small (except the tower adds more levels). Note the tubercles both on top and underneath the leaves. I can well imagine that through many generations of selecting for stronger tubercles, one could also arrive at the point where some of the more extreme DW hybrids have arrived today. Note as well that many of the tubercles are not spiky points, but elongated. Imagine too now breeding and selecting over generations for greater density of tubercles, and tubercles that are raised higher on the leaf surface.
[Sie müssen registriert oder eingeloggt sein, um das Bild sehen zu können.]

Here again is another example of the A. descoingsii X A. 'Salt'. This one is a select sister seedling to the one I sent Ada. Of particular interest is the consideration which I have found so far that usually, the pure species exhibits greater influence on the results, and yet here we see what I think is a great "improvement" (opinion of course) over A. descoingsii. What this is telling me is basically a confirmation of the fact that descoingsii is already a major contributor to the genetics of the 'Salt' hybrid, so the back cross to the ancestor was not in conflict, and so the results here were more of a better compromise between the two.  I also last year crossed one of these seedlings back to 'Salt' again, and it will be interesting over the next year or so to see further development of those small seedlings, to see those results. One might ask why in the first place, with having already something as nice as 'Salt'... why would I choose to go backwards breeding to descoingsii, because obviously one could predict that the outcome would be less than the goal of trying to improve 'Salt'. The answer lies in the fact that one can cross actual seedlings together successfully, but not clones of each other (usually). At the time, I only had a very few different DW hybrids, but I had acquired 3 individual plants of 'Salt', and I tried to cross them together. With repeated failures, I realized that it was the same thing trying to cross any two together as trying to cross one to itself - it doesn't work. So, I figured I could cross 'Salt' back to it's main ancestor, and then obtain seedlings with their own similar but distinct genetics so as to both cross them to each other and back cross to 'Salt' to eventually try to achieve my goals that way. In itself, it has become an interesting and ongoing experiment, but in the meantime, I was able to acquire some other great DW hybrids, different from 'Salt', but with the same similar characteristics (teeth, texture, and the white coloring) and accelerate my breeding program goals. The other main consideration when trying to breed chosen plants together, is they of course have to bloom at the same time. Getting them to cooperate in this way does involve some luck. One could try to refrigerate pollen, but that is an additional activity I would prefer to avoid. Now having some 50 or so different hybrids featuring DW genetics, each unique but mostly all similar, I can almost always have some blooming at the same time to successfully cross different chosen ones together.
[Sie müssen registriert oder eingeloggt sein, um das Bild sehen zu können.]

Lastly, some food for thought.  I will mention one clue as to what DW was using to breed together early on. 'Doran Black' is considered one of DW's earliest highly popular and successful creations., and I believe it is one of the building blocks of his ongoing work.  It is said to be a complex cross, including A. albiflora, A. bakeri, A. descoingsii, and A. juvenna.

Best Regards,
Tom
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Beitrag  spinesandrosettes am So 10 März 2019, 22:54

Hallo zusammen,

In Bezug auf die Art des 'Red Dragon' Hybrid sehe ich einige verschiedene, die ähnlich sind. Alle sind ein bisschen anders und Red Dragon ist auch sehr nett.

Hier sind zwei von mehreren verschiedenen, die ich zusammen züchte.

Kein Name
[Sie müssen registriert oder eingeloggt sein, um das Bild sehen zu können.]

Aloe 'Dental Work' (Kelly Griffin)
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Samenhülsen auf beiden bereits
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Hier ist auch ein anderer, der 'Red Dragon' näher kommt.
Aloe 'Swordfish' (Kelly Griffin)
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Und später ... größer und mit mehr Sonnenschein.
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LG,
Tom
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Beitrag  M.Ramone am Mo 11 März 2019, 00:08

Good evening Tom,

thank you very much for the detailed explanation! You made it clear to me now.

I didn't think you were arguing. I hope you didn't think I was arguing, too. For me it was just a very educational experience. I had my thoughts and got corrected with logical arguments. I'm not able to add anything to our little discussion, but I can tell you I'll look closer and deeper when seeking inspiration in the future. All that stuff becomes more interesting with every day and with every person I talk to or every blog/ article I read. So I really appreciate that you took the time to tell a beginner what's important to have an eye on. You are a very kind person, Tom.

It's nice to see that we share the same thoughts about humilis x pratensis. It really is the coolest selection I've seen so far.

The humilis on the second picture is from Berlin, I guess? I've got the same form and I thought this is the "normal" form. I like the plant you described as "normal" form more. It looks more dangerous to me, like the big spiders that crawl over the walls in my living room.

By the way did you receive my last PM? It's still in the outpost. I'm just wondering because I had the issue that one member here didn't receive a PM once allthoug I had it in the outbox.

Best regards.
M.Ramone
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Beitrag  spinesandrosettes am Mo 11 März 2019, 00:22

Hi Marcus,

No, I enjoy the discussion. Also, it's good to be challenged sometimes because it gives one the opportunity to reexamine their position, and it makes the knowledge one has stronger. Also, I didn't do a good job of explaining my reasoning earlier on, and completely forgot to bring up the very important aspect of the flowers. Again, it's all good.

Thanks for mentioning the PM... sorry! I missed it. Will check and reply now.

Best Regards,
Tom
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Beitrag  M.Ramone am Mo 11 März 2019, 00:40

I think there isn't much to reply. Very Happy
I was just wondering why it's still in the outpost and not in sent messages. Since one message wasn't send I'm always curious when a PM is longer than one day in the outpost. But ok, you missed it. Happens. Don't worry.
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Beitrag  M.Ramone am Di 12 März 2019, 18:49

Feuchtigkeit, Wärme und stehende Luft haben der Doran Black allem Anschein nach das Leben gekostet.  Sad
Vor einer Woche habe ich zum Glück Ableger genommen. Gut, von denen ist auch schon einer hinüber, der andere aber sitzt komplett trocken.

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